tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8950714.post837239652638113130..comments2024-02-15T17:38:13.412-06:00Comments on nunblog: Roman Missal: More about the ManySister Annehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04032465016160490375noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8950714.post-36048945497960136212011-04-16T14:14:00.328-05:002011-04-16T14:14:00.328-05:00The bishop of Paterson just wrote about this subje...The bishop of Paterson just wrote about this subject, too: http://www.patersondiocese.org/page.cfm?Web_ID=4116Sister Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04032465016160490375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8950714.post-89623816067823608922011-04-14T00:45:33.217-05:002011-04-14T00:45:33.217-05:00Sr. Anne, excellent point about the distinction be...Sr. Anne, excellent point about the distinction between "shed" and "poured out". Indeed, Our Lord <i>shed</i> His Blood for <i>all</i>, yet His Blood is <i>poured out</i> ("sprinkled") upon the <i>many</i> who are gathered around the altar of His sacrifice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8950714.post-14830710420334788392011-04-13T22:41:30.626-05:002011-04-13T22:41:30.626-05:00Just a reminder: it is a dogma of faith (and expli...Just a reminder: it is a dogma of faith (and explicit in Scripture) that Christ died for all. That is why I think it is more helpful to note the difference in what will be said over the chalice: it will not refer (as now) to blood being "shed"--but we all seem to be carrying that word and its meaning over as we hear the "many." <br />To put it differently:<br />currently: blood-->shed-->for all<br />coming: Chalice (or blood--it's not clear)-->poured out-->for many<br />The "pouring out" (not the killing) is what seals a covenant. At least, that is what I have read.Sister Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04032465016160490375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8950714.post-55591435838778724542011-04-13T22:35:13.537-05:002011-04-13T22:35:13.537-05:00The "take and drink" is addressed to &qu...The "take and drink" is addressed to "omnes" ("all"), but we add the words "of you" in English because we don't have a verb form of direct address. So there is an "all" that qualifies the "many," you could say.<br /><br />"Omnes" was one of our Founder's favorite words, owing especially to a profound insight he had into the words of Jesus in Matthew 10: "Come to me, <i>all</i> of you" ("<i>omnes</i>"--no "you" in the Latin here either). <br />I think we do need to keep all these passages together, and realize that they all come to bear upon the words over the Chalice.Sister Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04032465016160490375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8950714.post-77843836218839283292011-04-13T20:12:06.652-05:002011-04-13T20:12:06.652-05:00As faithful Catholics, shouldn't we welcome a ...As faithful Catholics, shouldn't we welcome a translation that sticks to what Jesus said, rather than what we, with our modern ideas of "inclusion" and universal salvation, might wish that He had said?<br /><br />DavidAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8950714.post-89844774210595174522011-04-13T20:05:33.105-05:002011-04-13T20:05:33.105-05:00Kristen,
There is a Latin word for "all"...Kristen,<br /><br />There is a Latin word for "all" -- omnia. In the official Latin text, the word that is prayed over the chalice, the word that has come down to us from time immemorial, is multis, not omnia. "For all" is an illegitimate translation that is finally being corrected.<br /><br />DavidAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8950714.post-66989549037640360562011-04-13T17:52:57.376-05:002011-04-13T17:52:57.376-05:00I was just thinking, since when does "many&qu...I was just thinking, since when does "many" mean "not all"? It just means "many"! <br />But we will have to do a lot of communicating with people who will have a visceral reaction to the word, thinking it is limiting, when it is really attempting to carry the weight of all those Scriptures--plus one more (very relevant) passage I just thought of.... Remember when the disciples asked Jesus, "Are they many who will be saved?" And Jesus answered slyly, "Try to enter through the narrow gate."<br />In John's Gospel, Jesus says that <i>he</i> is the gate, and that he is the Way, the Truth and the Life. How can we put all of that into the word "many"?Sister Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04032465016160490375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8950714.post-4672679555731913282011-04-13T13:55:17.022-05:002011-04-13T13:55:17.022-05:00Thanks for this overview.
Other (non-Catholic) ch...Thanks for this overview.<br /><br />Other (non-Catholic) churches often use "for you and for many" and when I hear that I always wince. To hear that in a Catholic church as well will feel to me like a punch in the gut.<br /><br />It still seems to me that "many" is inherently Jansenist -- or perhaps more accurately it can (and I am quite sure will) so very very easily be heard in a Jansenist way that it runs a very very serious risk of grave confusion or even scandal.<br /><br />If you ask me. Which the Vatican did not.<br /><br />But of course there are all those Biblical references to "many" that you cite. I wonder (and this is speculation on my part -- I don't know the languages in question) if maybe we're missing an idiom here. If "for many" in the original languages idiomatically means "for all" then maybe a strictly literal translation is not the most appropriate one. Because in English, "many" does not mean "few" but it also does not mean "all." It is a subset of all. Potentially a big subset, but still a subset.<br /><br />(The stricter of my Presbyterian friends would say that all those references to "many" you have cited precisely mean "many" and not "all" but I don't want to go there and I don't think you, or the ICEL, or the Pope do either!)<br /><br />Thanks for all you're providing on the background here ...Kristennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8950714.post-58361517210380063032011-04-13T09:08:58.123-05:002011-04-13T09:08:58.123-05:00Sr. Anne, I talked about po-boys and penance on th...Sr. Anne, I talked about po-boys and penance on the last Catholic Foodie episode. Of course I had to do a bit of "research" to get ready for the show!<br /><br />Just want to let you know that Fr. Jay Finelli tagged me in a Lenten meme, and now I'm tagging you! http://catholicfoodie.com/content/ive-been-taggedThe Catholic Foodiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09981331545985151785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8950714.post-73142440483023529482011-04-13T08:30:26.730-05:002011-04-13T08:30:26.730-05:00Sr. Anne, these reflections are very helpful. Here...Sr. Anne, these reflections are very helpful. Here are some additional thoughts by the Holy Father (then Cardinal Ratzinger) on the topic of pro multis:<br /><br />http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2006/print2006/ratzinger_formany_nov06.html<br /><br />Keep up the good work!<br /><br />DavidAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com